Anthem:Hello, party people. Welcome back to another episode of the Art of Hustle podcast series. Listen, I’m about to introduce you to somebody really awesome. She’s an artist. She’s a community worker. She’s a cultural worker. She’s a leader. She’s a ball of inspiration. She’s a former mentee. This is Kat Evasco. She’s amazing. You’re going to find out why in a little bit. Let me tell you, after she and I recorded this conversation, I started reflecting back on the dialogue and I realized there were a couple of gems that occurred to me after the fact. I don’t want to miss out on an opportunity to speak on those things, so I’m going to speak about them now, and then, I’m going to welcome you to seek those things out once we begin the conversation, okay?

Here are some things I want to point out that I thought would be really valuable for us as a sort of preview. Here’s the first one. Number one, curriculum design. The idea that you can basically design your life and also design your own learning experience. A lot of times, this is true for all of us and this is no-knock to formalize education, but a lot of times curriculums are designed for us, right? We walk into a program, they basically say, “Follow this pathway and everything will be fine.” The books we read, the instructors we train with, et cetera a lot of times, it’s pre-designed for us. It’s prescribed. That’s cool for a certain type of learning, but I think we can also say, we can also agree how important critical thinking is.

This is something we often talk about in college, right? Our professors are always beating it into us. Critical thinking, critical thinking. Think critically. Analyze things. Question things. How important is it to actually practice that critical thinking outside of the classroom? Again, when there is no curriculum, that’s probably, in my opinion, where it is most valuable. That is where you get a chance to actually design your own curriculum, figure out what you want to learn and recruit mentors that you like. This is something that I’m bringing up because Kat and I started working together in 2011. We worked together, I think a total of three times formally since then and we’ve kept in-touch, obviously as friends and as colleagues, and have talked in other capacities.

Since then, Kat now has all kinds of mentors. She has all kinds of coaches. She’s been able to realize how important it is whether she would word it this way or not, I’m putting words in her mouth. This is something I’m observing. She’s been able to design her own curriculum and really value her own learning experience in such a way that through her own sort of lens, through her own sense of critical thinking, her own sense of analysis of the world and of her own world in particular, she’s been able to continue learning and putting together a program that works best for her. I find that inspiring. I think it’s awesome. I think we should all do that, we should all be doing that really for the rest of our lives.

That’s number one. Number two, walk your talk. Walk your talk. That’s all like whatever your mission is, make sure it is present as much as possible 360 degrees. You guys already know this because it appears everywhere in the literature, in the Art of Hustle literature. I have committed about 15 or so years to arts and nonprofit work. One thing that I’ve noticed that many people who’ve worked in the field will have notice is obviously, there’s a huge dedication to uplifting the community in some fashion or another. There are so many different ways to express that. Most of the time, that is expressed in the programs, in the programs. At the same time, paradoxically, it’s not often expressed internally inside of the organization and by that I mean, taking care of staff.

It is not uncommon for folks who works at nonprofit organizations to themselves feel burnt out while being of service to the community. I think that’s problematic. I think most people would agree. I think the people who are themselves burning out will agree that is problematic. It’s always something that people know is present, but I don’t think people shine enough of a light on it. I think it’s important to look at it and say, “Hey, why is it this way? How can we make it better?” “Why do we accept this as just a reality? Isn’t there a way to make it better?”

The thing that you’re going to find out shortly is Kat is actually working for an organization right now, that is, I think to my knowledge anyways, for whatever experience that I have in the world, I think they’re actually making major strides in doing it because they’re an organization that promotes leadership, but they don’t do that just in their programs. The promote it internally as well. What a radical thing. Radical because it’s so rare, but really it’s just so sensible. Whatever it is you’re promoting, it should happen internally as well. If you like, from what Kat tells me, they really take care of their people. They prioritize self-care and leadership inside the organization.

Wouldn’t it be awesome if the entire field did that, if everybody did that, whether for-profit or nonprofit, or whatever? Whatever the thing is you’re promoting, what if you extended that same amazing vision internally, so that people who are delivering or helping deliver that grand vision also feel part of it and not just burnt out from having to deliver it, so that other people can benefit. Shouldn’t we all benefit from that grand vision? Again, it’s so sensible but in a workforce, in a place, in many fields where it doesn’t often happen enough, it’s revolutionary. It’s radical. It’s a beautiful thing. Maybe more and more people will be inspired to think more critically about that and take that on as a mission.

Okay, guys. Last thing, and thank you for your patience as I ramble on. Last thing. Business development, guys. Business development, you know Art of Hustle coaching is primarily a business coaching service. This is a thing I didn’t get a chance to express during our conversation which would be good for us to reflect on now. If you think about it, going back to the self-care thing, self-care a lot of times, people think about psychological health and people think about physical health. In recent days, I’ve come to realize that business development is an expression of self-care. It’s an expression of self-care. While people should be taking care of themselves psychologically, spirituality, physically; people should also be taking care of themselves financially.

Ultimately, that’s where business coaching in my world, the way I’m thinking about it now totally fits in and why it’s so important to people to really mind how they take care of that aspect of their lives. Again, going back to walking your talk and making sure everything’s taken care of in 360 degrees, why take care of all these other facets and then completely omit, completely leave out, completely allow to atrophy, to suffer these other very important component which is your career, your profession, your ability to generate income/revenue for your own upliftment and for the upliftment of everybody around you; your family, the people who look up to you, your friends, your broader community?

You can ignore finances. It is an expression of self-care and to think otherwise, I think would be detrimental to all other self-care that you try to do because it’s all connected. Last thing guys, and then, I’m really going to let this recording play out. Last thing I want to point out on that business development tip, Kat on paper is not a business owner. I’ll tell you what Kat is. In my opinion, I think you’ll find this to be true as well. Kat is a true artist. A true artist is not limited by definitions and old school labels. Even though Kat is not a business owner, she’s been able to take everything that I talk about in Art of Hustle Business Coaching and she’s been able to translate it to entrepreneurial thinking.

In that entrepreneurial thinking, that being industrious, she’s been able to apply a lot of the methodologies, the tactics, the mindset to her own work as an artist, as a person who does work for a nonprofit. Even though she’s not a business owner, she’s been able to apply all of those things and make amazing strides, gains, advances. At the end of the day, isn’t that the realest of real art, when you can actually metamorphosize your life when you can tap into that sense of alchemy and create and reinvent yourself as you see fit. I think this is something Kat’s been able to do with herself personally and also professionally. It’s again, amazing to watch her grow to blossom and to get into a leadership role to be able to help other people grow and blossom. You’ll hear about all that shortly.

I just wanted to point that out, you know? At the end of the day, in my opinion, the truest artistic thinking and the truest entrepreneurial thinking are actually one and the same. It speaks to inventiveness. It speaks to out-of-the-box thinking. I really feel like Kat embodies that. I’m so proud, really, to introduce her. Without further delay, once again, this is the Art of Hustle Podcast Series and you’re going to hear from Kat Evasco.

Anthem: What’s up, everybody? Thank you for being here joining us for another episode inside of the Art of Hustle Podcast Series. I have an awesome guest and the way I’m going to introduce her is by reading a little bit about her bio, and Kat, of course, if there’s anything you need to clarify here, feel free to jump in and do so. Kat Evasco is a writer, standup comedienne, performance artist, and educator based in the San Francisco Bay Area. She was born in the Philippines and immigrated to Los Angeles where she was raised. Kat is best known for her nationally touring autobiographical one-woman show, Mommy Queerest co-written and directed by John Caldon.

Evasco currently serves as the Chief Dream Director of The Future Project and as the Artistic Director of Guerrilla Rep. Evasco is a recipient of the Creative Capacity Fund, Quick Grant, Next Gen Art Professional Development Grant, and The Zellerbach Family Foundation Grant. She holds a BA in Asian-American Studies from San Francisco University. Kat, welcome.

Kat: Hi. Thanks for having me, Anthem.

Anthem: Yeah, sure thing. Thank you so much for being here. So many places to begin. Let’s go ahead and do this. Something that’s not included in your bio that I think would be interesting for folks to know about is you were actually one of my very first clients inside of the Art of Hustle Coaching Program way back in the day in its infancy. That’s something I’m really proud of mostly because you’re somebody that took everything that we studied together and really ran with it. You’ve been able to build crazy new things for yourself and for your various communities and your career has totally done a 180 since we first met. Fair to say?

Kat: Yeah, absolutely.

Anthem: Here’s what I’m wondering, if you could do for us. Can you paint a sort of like a snapshot or a picture of what you were working on, the kinds of things that you were involved with, where your career was when you and I first started working together, so folks kind of get a glimpse?

Kat: Yeah. We started working together in 2011, actually. At that time, I made the leap from the corporate world to nonprofit arts. Yay! That was quite a ride. I was going through a lot of big shifts, a major one being salary.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: Which was very real. I knew that I was jumping into what I was passionate about and cared about. I think what prompted me to work with you at that time was, I was trying to figure out how to make this sustainable and also how can I grow my practice. At that time, I don’t even think I was thinking that way, you know?

Anthem: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kat: I think I was just in survival mode, like I had so much work, so I was at that time working for Bindlestiff Studio and I was …

Anthem: In what capacity?

Kat: I was the president of the board. I think I might have been 26 or 27. I was super young. I was also the funds director. I was handling a lot of fundraising at that time writing grants, running the capital campaign, and membership programs.

Anthem: For folks who don’t know, Bindlestiff Studio is?

Kat: Bindlestiff Studio is the only theater in the country that is … theater space in the country that is dedicated to cultivating Filipino and Filipino-American artists. It’s a huge deal. It was my stomping ground that is kind of where I really fell in love with theater and where I learned so much about the art itself. It felt right for me. I think I always wanted to work for Bindlestiff. I was finally there and I’m like, “Wait. Something is feeling not right.” I reached out to you because I was like, “How can I look at this in a different way? How can I perceive this in a way that feels … ” I was highly stressed out at that time.

Anthem: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kat: At that time, when you were starting your practice, and I have to say I’m super proud to be one of the very first clients of Art of Hustle and to also grow with you as you grow your business. I was so young and I was trying to figure out how to make it work. I think my scope was so small. I was really, I think at that time, I was like, “My dream job!” It’s still maybe is. It’s like, “I want to be the managing director, artistic director, executive director of Bindlestiff.” My world was so Bindlestiff, and it’s still is, by the way. I think what that work helped me do is open up my mind, opened up my scope of vision.
You started to open up my eyes to see what other opportunities are out there and then, I ended up leaving Bindlestiff to join Youth Speaks full-time as a production manager there. It gave me an insight to another nonprofit who had more resources and more staff, and was more established and that gave me another insight.

Anthem: Let’s talk title. What role did you hold at Youth Speaks?

Kat: I started actually as a production associate. I worked directly with a mentor of mine, Joan Osato who’s a producing director at Youth Speaks. I was in-charge of producing a lot of our live events. Youth Speaks produces on average over a hundred shows a year.

Anthem: Yeah, so a pretty significant shift in role and in responsibility level and fair to say, salary?

Kat: Yeah, absolutely.

Anthem: If I recall correctly, a lot of the work that you were doing for Bindlestiff, you were still sort of volunteering for it. Am I remembering that correctly?

Kat: Part of it. I mean, I was getting … I had a contracted position then.

Anthem: Oh, okay. Okay.

Kat: I was getting a contracted kind of pay or fee, but I had to subsidize it. I was the stage managing, so I was freelancing for a while. I always was excited about producing and production work. It felt like something I was really excited about and I got to do that as a day job, which was awesome. I was there for three years. My position by the time I left was production manager.

Anthem: Okay.

Kat: I was leading a lot of the production for our national festival, Brave New Voices premier. Yeah, I grew a lot within that organization as well.

Anthem: Awesome. From there into your current … I’m looking at your life and that part of your life in thirds. The next phase was what?

Kat: Alongside with what was happening professionally was what was happening artistically, too. I think in 2013, I was applying for an Arts Leadership Masters Program and I didn’t get in. I only applied to one. I kind of get like that. When I want something, I just go for that one thing, you know? I didn’t get in. This was 2013 and I was heartbroken like most people who feel … like, who get a rejection letter and it took me three months to get over it. What happened was James Kass, our executive director at Youth Speaks opened up an opportunity for me to study with Anna Deavere Smith that summer.

Anthem: How so? How does that door open up for you? What was the lead up to that?

Kat: What I heard was that … Well, James said, “We have spots in Anna Deavere Smith’s class. She want it predominantly male of color,” and I heard it. I was like, “What about me?” I was like, “I want to do it.” I think just expressing my excitement to do that, James Kass was like, “I’m going to ask her for you,” and she let me in.

Anthem: Very cool.

Kat: It changed my trajectory in such a huge way artistically and entrepreneurially in a creative sense, but that really was the time where I was like, “Oh, maybe I should start focusing on my artistic career and my artistic development.” The moment I decided to do that, Mommy Queerest premiers in 2014, and we sell out a six-week extended run. Then, it starts touring. We brought parts of it to Philadelphia, Los Angeles. We did a two-week run in Boston. We’re getting ready this year to bring it back in San Francisco and Philadelphia this year. It’s still going. On top of that, just growing my practice as a theater artist, as a storyteller, and like, you know, Anna Deavere Smith invites me back the next summer.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: The first time, James got me in. The next year, Anna Deavere Smith asked me back. That class is focused on personal narratives and global identities, and really focused on how we … When we explore our own narratives, we’re able to connect more deeply with the world and that shaped my art, my aesthetic in a really big way. Those things are happening while, like my career is kind of starting to takeoff in the nonprofit world. After Youth Speaks, I joined another national organization called The Future Project. Our mission is to power the possibility of young people, which is such an exciting … It’s such an exciting type of work. A lot of ways, the Art of Hustle and the work that I’ve done with you have primed me for that space.

It is a space where we teach the skill of how to dream big. I think, you could see in my trajectory the times where I started to take bigger actions, the times where I started taking bigger risks, the times where I started to dream bigger and still, I think … I recently just tapped into my own biggest vision for myself, but yes. I think even though that is not specifically art-centered, there’s so much creativity in it, but also, I believe so much on entrepreneurship and to be instilling that with young people in the high school level, to engage a young person and start having them think about what their purpose in life is, I don’t know. I’ve been blessed.

Anthem: It’s big. It’s big.

Kat: Yes.

Anthem: So many adults don’t even know their purpose in life.

Kat: Exactly, or their dreams.

Anthem: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It’s fantastic to get folks started as early as possible. That makes a lot of sense, the type of the work that The Future Project is doing which is, the way I look at it and I think you guys might articulate it this way as well is leadership cultivation.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: Leadership cultivation get people to actually envision a future where they’re not just a witness, but a really strong participant is major, major. This is the funny thing that sometimes people ask me because I love artists and even though sometimes, I have moments where I wish people would get onboard the Art of Hustle training more because I feel like I want to … I really want to help so many people and I wish people understood the process, but sometimes, one of the things that people say is, “I don’t get it.” Like, “Isn’t art in business? Aren’t those things polar opposites of one another?” “I have no plan of opening a business or registering a business.” Can you speak to why opening a business literally or registering one is not necessarily the same as applying entrepreneurial or business thinking to your career and to your art making, and to your advancement in your profession?

Kat: Yeah. I have to be honest. At first, it was hard for me to melt those two things together. I think at the beginning of my trajectory in my career, I was on an ED track like I want to be an executive director. I wanted to be an arts administrator. For a long time, I felt like those things are mutually exclusive like I can only be a producer or an artist, and I can’t be both. It wasn’t until I was applying for DePaul and I have incredible mentors like the coaching I did with you and [Joanie 00:24:45] and really understood that those things were not mutually exclusive, and actually when you are able to bring those things together, it pushes your artistic career faster.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: That was like a big a-ha moment, like, “Oh, it’s not mutually exclusive.” Actually, all the work that I have been doing in arts administration and producing and production management really served how I put my work out there as an artist in the world and in some ways, I think because I understood that, it propelled my career and in a sense my visibility in the world in a bigger way. I think it’s hard. I think it is a mindset shift. I think it is a paradigm shift for artists.

You and I talked about this a lot because I feel … I’ll be honest. I feel the same frustration because I think as artists, we get really … We get stuck with the same narrative of the whole starving artist and that’s not okay with me anymore. I know it exists. I know it’s hard. I know it’s a struggle. Even changing our mindset or changing the narrative like now, we don’t have to be starving. Actually, there’s a lot of artists out there that are thriving, that are generating a lot of income, you know?

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: When I saw that and also, I think doing my work with you, I’ve also made an intentional effort to change my relationship to money. That dispelled a lot of thoughts that, like mindsets or thoughts that did not serve my whole … that were just holding me back.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: A lot of it were fear-based, you know?

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: When I was able to separate those things and realized that money is just another form of abundance, then I can pursue it and not feel guilty about it because I know it’s feeding my art. I know it’s feeding the communities I serve, you know?

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: I think that’s a really big thing, but for artists, I think that one quote that always comes to mind, Anna Deavere Smith has a book called Letters to Young Artists and in it, she has one about business and she opens the chapter saying, “The moment you decide to sell a piece of work, you’re in business.”

Anthem: That’s right.

Kat: I really believe, if you want to sustain your practice as an artist, there’s different ways to do that, but if you want to pursue that as part of a core, part of your life, you have to embrace the fact that it’s a business.

Anthem: Yeah, agree.

Kat: You should want to generate money. It’s not sustainable. I cannot be flying to places on my on dime. I have bills.

Anthem: But so many people have, I guess, right?

Kat: It’s true.

Anthem: When you talk to other theater artists or musicians even, it’s really common for people to go to places on their own dime.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: The crazy thing that I’m finding in the arts field, the nonprofit field is that a lot of people are subsidizing the field itself because so many people are paying their own way. It doesn’t have to be that way. I talked to my former mentor recently in another podcast episode and something she brought up, she was really talking about the stresses of life and emotional wear of things, but I think it applies here as well is when you participate in something, you got to ask yourself, “Is this thing a credit or a debit?” Like, to what degree is this thing feeding me or am I feeding it? Like, who’s paying who in this exchange? I feel like for a lot of artists, they’re the ones paying in a lot.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: They’re actually, in a weird way, the subsidizers instead of the ones being subsidized.

Kat: Right.

Anthem: It’s kind of wild to think about it. It’s cool that you’re talking about this shift, this sense of ownership and it is a mindset shift because all these structures have already been there. You just hadn’t tapped into it when you were thinking smaller. Fair to say?

Kat: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Anthem: Crazy. Okay.

Kat: I know, I know. It’s been a journey, but it’s one of those things that in all honesty, the way that the structure’s set up around the arts like the institution of the arts and the economy of it needs to be disrupted in a big way.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: I feel like it has to come from artists. Artists are the ones that have to disrupt this, you know?

Anthem: Agree. Yes.

Kat: I’m excited to be stirring that pot with you.

Anthem: Right on. I’m down to do it. The book is due out in the fall, folks, hopefully.

Kat: Hey!

Anthem: That’ll help push the conversation forward.

Kat: Yes.

Anthem: Let’s talk about this nonprofit as a state of mind, for-profit as a state of mind. I’ve always believed this whenever people adamantly, sometimes militantly say, “We can’t participate in business. We’re nonprofit.” I’m always like, “You’re actually not a nonprofit. You might work for a nonprofit, but that’s not an identity,” or it shouldn’t be, in my opinion. Nonprofit is an IRS designation. You’re really going to identify by what a government institution thinks of you on a piece of paper, that’s crazy when you think about what it is, right?

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: It’s like walking around being like, “I’m 501(c)(3),” and being militant about it is crazy. People do it when they use the word nonprofit because it encompasses like some wild idea that it’s better.

Kat: Or it’s serving public.

Anthem: Yes, but there’s so many ways to serve the public, right?

Kat: That’s true. That’s true. So many for-profits do, right?

Anthem: Yes. Let’s talk about this because it’s fun. A lot of people don’t think about it, but if you think about most foundation money, that’s actually for-profit money.

Kat: Yeah. I mean, it’s coming from that. It’s coming from corporations, [crosstalk 00:31:36] donors.

Anthem: Totally, right?

Kat: It’s coming from that world.

Anthem: I mean, just look at … I mean, without naming them, but if you were to look at the names of some of the really … some of the biggest contributors to arts and nonprofit work, the biggest funders, those family names are also the same names of major mega corporations.

Kat: That’s right.

Anthem: Right? It’s weird to think that people think things are so opposite when really, in a weird way, the entire field is getting fed in a major way by for-profit work.

Kat: True.

Anthem: It maybe a good idea not to demonize it entirely.

Kat: Yeah, we should ask for more.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: I don’t think it should be demonized. I think we should get smarter about it like how that economic exchanges between those two things, you know?

Anthem: Exactly.

Kat: And build a stronger bridge to it.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: Imagine if, like the ethos that we do have in the nonprofit world starts infiltrating the for-profit world or vice versa, right?

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: Yeah, I think there’s so much we can … Those two entities learn from each other, and they do. I think you’re right to say that those entities do not interact in a very symbiotic and economical way is such a false way of looking at things.

Anthem: Yeah. It’s really just basic ecology.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: Most people aren’t keenly aware or they haven’t begun to actually look at it, you know? When you start asking the questions and you start actually following the money, you start to go, “Oh, wow. That’s how that works. That’s how that artist got booked,” or “That’s why that gallery does it,” or “That’s why that space gets that.” It’s amazing just to start asking the questions and you start to realize, “Wait a minute. Am I the only one that’s broke up in here?” Like, “How come everybody’s getting paid except for the artist?”

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: It seems like there’s a lot of money flowing, you know what I mean?

Kat: There’s a lot of money out in the world.

Anthem: That’s what I’m saying. I mean, it’s wild. Even on the structural level, for organizations, what I’m beginning to notice and this is what I’ve always believed, you tell me what you think. I believe the issues that individual artists go through, and issues that arts organizations go through are mirrors of one another. In a weird way, the artists is the microcosm, the arts organization is the macrocosm but they both kind of go through some of the same things as far as thought processes, as far as dilemmas, how to make money, how to survive. It’s like, micro macro but it’s all totally kind of a mirror for one another, would you say?

Kat: Absolutely. I think you hit it right on the head there.

Anthem: I mean, I feel that way in particular because I’ve worked for a lot of smaller organizations where that is way more clear maybe for a five or $10 million organization. It might be different, but I feel like for something that would be considered small to midsize arts organization, I feel a lot of the problems and also a lot of the solutions are reflected throughout the structure.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: As you and I are talking about how important it is for individuals to start thinking entrepreneurially whether you formally start a business or not, what are you finding organizations are starting to participate in as far as that kind of thought process or dialogue within themselves.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: Is there a soul-searching happening right about now that you are witnessed to?

Kat: I think there is … What I’m witnessing there are nonprofits now, I feel like it’s going to start trending and it should, but there are a lot of nonprofits now starting for-profit entities that will help support their work as nonprofits, so that we can continue to serve the community, but we’re going to create stuff that we’re going to sell to people and the people will buy this. It feeds each other, you know?

Anthem: Right.

Kat: When we’re starting to think about changing the economy, understanding the value of our work and monetizing it, and sales is a part of this. Even as artists, we’re sales people. I send out booking request. I send request to bookers. I’m marketing myself. I’m trying to convert conversations into actual bookings and contracts. I’m glad that nonprofits are looking at that because what happens is we become so dependent on where the money comes from.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: We know historically, organizations that have struggled, who have relied mostly on foundational campaigning and even private donor-giving. It’s important that we learn how to monetize what we’re making, so that it could feed itself and we’re not so reliant on the other foundations. I think in some ways, they want that for us, too but there’s no … I think the struggle is like, we’re in that shift right now, so we’re trying to figure out what it looks like, right?

Anthem: Right.

Kat: When you think about it, when you get a funding customer like the NAE, it’s going to shift things in some ways like we’re forced to.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: Right now, we are forced to look at how to monetize our work in a different way. I think it’s good. It’s terrible. It’s terrible that they got the NAE. It’s terrible, but it’s also forcing us to look at new possibilities in this field.

Anthem: That’s right.

Kat: Around sustainability, around growth, and I mean that also in a financial sense, you know?

Anthem: Yeah. What’s interesting is, sales have always been present in nonprofit organizations. They’ve just not been talked about a lot or they’ve been undervalued. When you think about organization that does a fundraiser, really what folks are looking for, I’m speaking very generally here, but I think most people will think this to be true. When there’s a fundraiser or when there are concession sales or when there are ticket sales, a lot of times, really what that organization is looking to do is make their own revenue.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s always been present. It’s always been part of the model. I think what you’re saying or what seems to be happening is it’s getting more formalized. People are getting more hip to the fact that, “Wait a minute. Yeah, funding does go down and up, and then down again.” It’s unpredictable, but if we can come up with a sales model, a business model that can actually help support everything, then maybe things will be more steady.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: I think that makes sense organizationally. I’m excited to see more and more organizations start to play with that. What I think is that everything has influence. Hopefully, more artists will see the model and start instituting that for their own lives, kind of like coming up with more entrepreneurial thinking to support their own work.

Kat: Absolutely. Yeah.

Anthem: Very cool. I think a lot of it has to do with again, unfortunately, going back to identity and story, like the stories that we tell ourselves about what nonprofit is, what for-profit is and there’s a sense that earned income for some reason is … I don’t know why, but that it’s dirty, but-

Kat: Yeah. I don’t know where it sells in nonprofit.

Anthem: Yeah, yeah. What’s weird is … This is what I think is so weird. Sale means there’s an exchange. It means you’ve actually given something back for that money, right?

Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Anthem: Which seems to be in a weird way honorable and fair, whereas if someone only takes donations, and I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that but I’m saying, it’s like, I don’t know how people can figure that a sale is less honorable because there’s actually a more direct sense of exchange. I think exchange is a good thing.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: I give you something, you give me something. Hey, that’s fair.

Kat: That’s partnership in a sense, you know, like short-term or long-term.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: When I sell Mommy Queerest to a presenter, that is a relationship …

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: … that I am building. Mommy Queerest could be first thing we work on together, but the hope is that we grow other projects together, that monetize both of us.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: You know?

Anthem: Yes. Yeah, I think it’s weird. I think younger artists maybe are tolerated more because you’re young. You know what I mean? You’re like, “Oh, let’s do it for the experience.”

Kat: There’s no other models that you see.

Anthem: Yeah, totally.

Kat: To be real, we self-funded Mommy Queerest for a big chunk of it. I think overall, it costs us, and it’s a low budget, like 20 grand to make over three years. That 20 grand does not even count the hundreds of hours John and I put into making it.

Anthem: Totally.

Kat: We’re not even being compensated for the actual, like the making of it.

Anthem: Art making.

Kat: Yeah, right?

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: I had to learn in that process like, “Wait a minute. You’re dripping yourself.” You’re paying everybody else who participates and you’re giving yourself the bare minimum because that’s what you think it would stand, and because you’re the one that’s feeding into it, too, right?

Anthem: Right.

Kat: We were in-charge of the fundraising for it and luckily, we got this Zellerbach grant and we were able to raise almost $5,000 on Kickstarter, and so that helped subsidize the cost of the actual premier. A lot of that was … I say this because in the beginning, you kind of have to self-fund. You kind of have to, and then, once it picks up, once you have something to sell, then go with it. Now, that it’s a finished product, it’s easier for John and I to pitch it to people and sell it. Now, we won’t do it. For the most part, we don’t do it if they’re not able to pay us to do it because it costs money. There’s other projects we’re working on.

Until like, for example, Mia Nakano is a collaborator I’m working on right now. She is a co-founder of Hyphen Magazine. She founded this project called the Visibility Project and for the last 10 years, self-funded a tour around the country to take portraits and do interviews of LGBTQ Asian-American Pacific Islander folks around the country. Now though, in 10 years, it culminates and she got a Creative Work Fund to turn it into a book. The book launch is June 6. It’s also the launch of the Resilience Archives. I’m producing a performance aspect of it from a workshop that I’m doing right now called Performing Resilience. She received the SF Arts commission for that. We just recently … I haven’t announced it yet. I don’t know why. We also just received the East Bay Community Fund.

Anthem: Nice.

Kat: To bring it to Oakland soon. Now, I’m trying to tell her we need to bring it around the country. Let’s do it again. Mia said she’s down to touring as long as she’s touring it with me.

Anthem: Nice.

Kat: She was also very entrepreneurial. I think what I love about working with Mia is her business savvy is incredible. I’m learning so much in just how she is able to track her time with the multiple projects she’s working on and things like that. That’s to say is you might have to kickstart yourself a little bit, but once you get going and trust in what you’re making, trust in the service you provide enough so that you’re starting to get money for it.

Anthem: Nice.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: Nice. I love it. I love it. You got multiple partnerships and projects happening right now. One of them is with Mia Nakano. What’s the name of the project again?

Kat: It’s the Visibility Project and also, the Resilience Archives. The Resilience Archives is a collection of archived portraits work, newsletter, everything over the last maybe 60 or 70 years that document activism and resilience among LGBTQ AAPI folks.

Anthem: I love it.

Kat: It’s incredible.

Anthem: I think there’s something beautiful about ownership of narrative, documenting it, capturing it, also authoring it, directing it which is like a metaphor but in your case, it’s literal because you’re a theater artist. You are authoring and directing.

Kat: Yup.

Anthem: What is it about ownership of story and narrative that you find to be important? Why are you so passionate about it? Why are you helping so many other people get their stories out? What is it about that, that you feel like it’s so crucial, so important to communities and to the world?

Kat: Yeah. I have to say as an artist, I love … Obviously, I enjoy being on-stage and performing for people but I think right now, where I find the most joy is when I’m doing personal narrative workshops. It is a space I get to cultivate with people, where they can share their own stories. I think that’s powerful. I think the idea of embracing and discovering ourselves, to me the work that I do around personal narrative work is helping people peel the layers to discover their true selves, their higher selves. For me, it’s also a very spiritual practice.

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: Obviously, I don’t go into a workshop and be like, “We’re going to unlayer spiritually in here,” but like, that’s kind of what happens, you know?

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: The moment someone … John Caldon who founded Guerrilla Rep, we were making a pitch to United Way or we were doing a presentation for United Way Bay Area and he said, I quote, “Every social movement begins with one person telling their story.” Every social movement begins with one person telling their story, and that hit it. I was like, “Yes.” When a story breaks out around one person, communities, countries galvanize around it.

Anthem: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kat: The work that I do is to really help people see the power of their own stories.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: In every journey and anyone’s story, I don’t care who you are and your story, even if you’re five years old, you have a story in which there is a moment in your life where your human spirit broke out and really shined, in that sense like you’ll always find a moment where you became resilient, became stronger.

Anthem: You don’t have to be a professional artist to benefit from that.

Kat: No. Most of the people I worked with in that space are not.

Anthem: Tell me about what kinds of folks are attending your workshops.

Kat: I’m starting to do workshops for a lot of different folks, so it’s very intergenerational. I’ve done personal narrative workshops with high school students, college students but just community members, folks who … Right now, with my performing resilience workshop which is a six-part series that culminates in performance showcase at the Resilience Archives launch on June 6 at Intersection for the Arts. We have folks who are in the medical field who are activists, who are students, who are teachers, who are educators. I think that to me, that excites me the most.

Anthem: What kinds of transformations are you witnessing? Obviously, you’re not following them over a long, long period but even within the workshop realm, within the confines of that space and time that you shared together, what kinds of things are you seeing people work out or arrive at when telling their stories?

Kat: I think what’s great about working in a group setting is one person can trigger another person. I kind of mean that in a literal and not in a literal sense. People do get triggered in the workshops. We always have trigger warnings. When someone goes deeper, it encourages other people to even go deeper.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: The transformation is, someone from talking about what happens in their every day life to talking about what happened to them years ago that is influencing the way they are walking in that daily life now, you know? I think for me, it ties them to their stories. It helps them embrace where they come from and honor their journey, in a way like, “You’re here because of what you went through.”

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: For me, it’s that radical self-love and radical self-acceptance that then allows us to recreate a new narrative for ourselves. It’s like, once we know, “Oh, that’s where that came from. That’s what this is,” and understanding our power now to be like, “That doesn’t have to be like that anymore. We can change that.”

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: In that space, we could imagine a life we want and try to pursue that, you know?

Anthem: What makes it radical? Why not just self-love? What part of it makes it radical to you?

Kat: I guess, this is the sense that I get from the workshops that I do is we do not get … That space is not always accessible for us to have a space that feels safe, that allows us to go deeper. We kind of go through life just knowing what’s there.

Anthem: Meaning? Like taking things for granted or … ?

Kat: Yeah. It might not be taking things for granted, but it’s like, we just know it as is.

Anthem: Accepting.

Kat: Accepting it, right. We don’t actually … I don’t think we really dig deep enough to uncover how that impacted our thought processes, how that impact our mindset, how that impact our relationship with people in different dynamics.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: I think when we’re in this space where we can actually do a deeper reflection and there’s such a deeper reflection when you have to perform it in front of people because you wan to share your story and you want to impart something to people. For me, when I set up my workshop, it’s always like, why? Why do you want to tell your story? Why do people tell their stories, right?

Anthem: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kat: At the baseline, people just want to connect. For me, that’s really the radical acceptance of ourselves allows us to accept other people, you know?

Anthem: Yes. That’s nice. Yeah.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: I can dig it. I want to share a quick story about a workshop, a theater workshop that I gave. I haven’t given one in a long while, but one of the last ones I gave was because you invited me to participate in this particular program with addicts in recovery, and that was such an awesome and powerful experience because we got a chance to work with that group over a long period of time. I think there was some natural hams in the group and then, some people are a little bit more standoffish, but I think as the workshop series continued, more and more people opened up. One of the last prompts I remember with my teaching partner giving the group was …

Imagine, a year from now what life will be like for you after this workshop, after this workshop series. Show us who you’re going to be, what life will be like. I could’ve cried because all these guys who obviously had dealt with all kind of things, inner demons, suicidal things that they’ve gone through, maybe familial things. A lot of them, the recurring theme that they imagined for themselves was getting back on track, like getting a job. Still seeing temptation, but then having the strength to turn it down and it was such a powerful thing to see and for me, it was an example.

Some of what you’re talking about, which is you could talk about your past and uncover that, and eventually, you get to a place where you can say, “Okay. Now that I’m writing my story, what can my future look like?” These guys and gals, all wrote a really amazing clear view of the kinds of the goals that they want to put themselves as addicts in recovery. It was so beautiful to see a story. Again, they weren’t necessarily artists on paper, but they use their artistic sensibilities to kind of work out some super power and necessary ideas.

Kat: Yeah, yeah. That program, specifically was a very … It was like a drama therapy program. It’s very intentional and that sense of, like we were going for catharsis, like healing in that space. I found that like in any space, that happens.

Anthem: Yes, yes. Yeah, it’s just a beautiful thing to see people open up and really own that story. Speaking of owning a story and dreaming big for the future, what can you tell us … I mean, let’s just do a quick summary of all your different projects because you have so many. Tell us about Guerrilla Rep. Tell us about Define American. Tell us about Future Project. We talked a little bit about some of them, so maybe we’ll focus here on Define American because that’s something we haven’t quite touched on.

Kat: Yeah. This is probably one of the most exciting things happening right now for me. One, because in 2011, when Jose Antonio Vargas, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist came out as being undocumented in the New York Times, I had an anxiety attack reading it because so much of my own narrative was reflected in what he was sharing and he was mirroring something that I did not have any desire to see.

Anthem: What was that?

Kat: That I, too is passing as an undocumented person in this country and not participating in the conversation when so many people were brave enough to share that. Imagine, in 2011 and I don’t actually come out about it in a public way until 2016. Right before the elections, I wrote an article that was published through EmergingUs which is also founded by Jose Antonio Vargas, which is the first multimedia platform owned by an undocumented immigrant coming out as being undocumented. The night before the election, I posted that article of Facebook urging family members of mine who was leaning towards Trump’s presidency, trying to convince them not vote for him. I think I succeeded with one family member. That’s huge. I take that as a win.

I also was featured in a Define American video that Yosimar Reyes, another collaborator of mine produced about coming out of two closets, coming out as being queer and coming out as being undocumented. Right now, I am collaborating with Yosimar Reyes on his solo autobiographical show called Prieto, which is his story growing up undocumented, queer in the hoods of East Side, San Jose. He’s an incredible poet, activist, artist. His first book got published at 19, funded by Carlos Santana.

Anthem: Dang!

Kat: This kid is just … He’s incredible. He’s actually the artist-in-residence at Define American. Define American is officially our executive of this play which is so exciting to have Jose involved with it in such a big way. I respect him so much, not just as an entrepreneur, but as an artist and so, I’m just excited. I think our goal is to make it as much possible an undocumented cast and crew, like just an undocumented crew, like a production that’s just all undocumented artists involved with it.

Anthem: Nice.

Kat: Yeah. That’s one of the main projects. We just actually did a workshop run of it at UC Santa Cruz two weeks ago and then, last week, I was invited to host the opening reception at the Divine American Film Festival in Charlotte, North Carolina and I spoke on a panel around storytelling, arts, and social impact. That experience, you kind of have to see that, you have to experience it to see how folks like Jose Antonio Vargas, Yosimar Reyes, the folks that work at Define American, EmergingUs are disrupting media. Disrupting it in a way that has more accurate and positive representations of immigrants of undocumented folks, of LGBT folks. They just worked on a film on undocumented trans-Latinas in Durham, North Carolina.

Anthem: Woah.

Kat: We talked about subversive, disruptive, and just actually more relevant and more reflective of what’s happening in our country. That partnership means the world to me. The other thing that I’m working on right now is I actually am also working with Jason Bayani who is the artistic director of Kearny Street Workshop and directing his solo show. Last year, I started directing and part of it is as an artist, I’m just trying to explore different ways to create work. I’m directing Yosimar’s show, Prieto and I’m also directing Locus of Control by Jason Bayani.

Anthem: That’s the name of the show?

Kat: That’s the name of the show. That goes up June 3rd and 4th.

Anthem: Nice.

Kat: I have a busy schedule.

Anthem: Yeah, you got a lot of things going on.

Kat: Yeah, on top of that, the six-week workshop that I get to collaborate with these amazing artists like [Han Jung, Sunshine, Cesar Cabales, Nancy Punam 00:59:31] and just meeting people and making work with people.

Anthem: Which workshop series is that?

Kat: It’s called Performing Resilience and it’s part of the Resilience Archives.

Anthem: Oh, that’s a part of … Okay. Got you. Got you.

Kat: Then, I’m working on my first full-length ensemble play about three Pinays trying to get married for citizenship. It’s a comedy.

Anthem: Nice.

Kat: I think I’m starting to develop another solo show, which right now the working title is Queerly Documented.

Anthem: How do you balance all of these?

Kat: It’s in my full-time job.

Anthem: Yeah, that’s a dream, right? A lot of people want to make it their full-time job to be art making, sustainable, and not burnt out. What is your sort of approach to balancing and/or curating? That’s a concept that came up with Irene when I talked to her, again, in another podcast episode, curating your life. What is your particular approach to curating, balancing, inviting certain projects in, or rejecting others? I’m sure you got to say no to some stuff, right?

Kat: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Anthem: How do you balance all of these out? What is your take on that?

Kat: One, I think over the years, I’ve gotten more clear as to what my mission is as a human in this world and that for me has really been around storytelling focus, but really the storytelling process is for people to uncover their power. In a way, the ethos, like our values as an organization at The Future Project is so embedded in what I do creatively. Also, I work for an organization that champions us to do different things. I’ve never worked for an organization where a passion project is part of what I’m being evaluated on. I get coaching around that.

Anthem: Please say more around that. That is radical. You want to talk about radical? That’s a radical. I think some people who are listening might not fully get it, so how would you explain that? You’re encouraged to have side projects.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: You’re encouraged to have your own passion projects.

Kat: Yup.

Anthem: In most normal work situations, people would be like, “You’re spending too much time on your own thing and it’s distracting you from work,” but in your case, it’s actually part of the mission that you cultivated in your own way outside of work.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: And they help you.

Kat: In a lot of ways, yeah.

Anthem: It’s crazy.

Kat: They really believe that we should be living in full possibility.

Anthem: I believe that, too.

Kat: For them, they need to see us living out our passions. If we’re going to inspire young people to do it, we better be modeling that.

Anthem: That’s right.

Kat: We cannot just be telling young people to dream big if we’re not dreaming big. We cannot tell them to pursue what they want if we’re not pursuing what we want. That is so embedded in our culture and I’m so lucky, like I feel very fortunate to work for an organization that allows that. I think, for us there’s a lot of high accountability. Obviously, we’re a national organization, so I get to do a lot of things remotely but I also, you know, I have a team here that I love and support and partners here in San Francisco through SFUSD. For us, as long as our accountabilities are met, be free. Do your thing. By free, that means we don’t have a five-week vacation policy. We have zero vacation policy, which means we could actually take as much time off as we need as long as our deliverables are accounted for, which is huge.

Anthem: I know you’ve taken advantage of that.

Kat: I can go on tour. I can go on tour and work from Boston. I can go on tour and … I went to the Define American Film Festival in Charlotte and I’m taking calls there. It’s a huge advantage. Also, I get coaching. I have an amazing boss. Her name is Akua Soadwa and she has her own coaching business, too called Let’s Pursue You. She coaches me every other week. She’s always checking in on me about my theater work. Not only is she asking about my team, or how we’re doing, or my deliverables, like she will go through that. Then, she’ll be like, “How’s your theater projects going? How’s the company going? What support do you need around that?” My boss before that, Sallomé, she sent me when I decided to be the artistic director of Guerrilla Rep, she sent me a plaque that had my name with Artistic Director on it to be like, live in it, be in it.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: I’m also surrounded by people who are just doing things, like they are killing the game in so many ways. One of my co-chiefs, she’s the Chief of Philadelphia and Interim Chief in DC, her name is Shantrelle P. Lewis. She’s someone I keep bringing up because she’s one of the most inspiring people to me. She curated an exhibit that is touring around the world. It was here at MOAD last year. It’s in Miami right now. It went to London. It’s called The Dandy Lion Project. Then, she got a book deal with Apeture, to publish into a book. Her book launch is going to be in Brooklyn, June 1st. If you’re in New York, go check it out. It’s going to dope.

She’s been to The Netherlands. She’s working on a film around African diasporan in Netherlands. When you see other people who are doing it and balancing it. The other thing is like, I kind of dispelled the whole nine-to-five situation. To me, my work is so important that I dispel that. Now, that doesn’t mean I don’t have self-care because that’s really important. I go out to the mountains a lot. I go hiking. I do a lot of self-care, but I don’t prescribe myself to certain work hours because with this type of flexibility, you have to be able to hold everything.

Sometimes, holding everything means it’s a 10-to-10 situation. Sometimes that means like I could do four hours a day or something. It’s just trying to see what’s coming up first. It’s not easy. I still get panic attack for real. Last night, I was like, “”Oh, my God. What is happening? Why is everything happening so fast?” Those are the moments that you have to just own and cherish, and be like, “Hold up. What do I need? What’s the most important thing right now?” When I clarify what your vision is and what you want, it’s easier to say no to things when you know it’s not serving that, right?

Anthem: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kat: I recently just crystallized my biggest dream. Are you ready for it?

Anthem: Yeah, hit me.

Kat: It’s so crazy. I decided that it is my calling to build a television network that has more positive representations of young people, of people of color, of underrepresented communities and the moment I said that, others opportunities started popping up. They’re like, “Would you be interested in being a managing director here,” or there? I’m like, “No.” I’m on one train right now. Right now, it’s that grad school and that, I need to build that. There’s so many distractions in life and when we’re not focused, it’s so easy to get distracted. That distraction can take five minutes or it can take five years of your life.

Anthem: Totally.

Kat: For not paying attention to what we need and what we want, what our spirit is capable of, it’s so easy to get sidetracked. In any case, I feel like you’ll always end back on the path. It just depends on how well you listen. How well you listen to yourself and your spirit will determine how quickly you’ll move through your path or how you might be distracted from it.

Anthem: I’m hearing so many things right now. So many things. Here’s a couple good takeaways. First of all, it’s so refreshing to hear that your organization is actually modeling what it wants of the world, right?

Kat: Yeah. It wants to redefine what work means.

Anthem: Yeah, and why not? It’s amazing, right? It’s just amazing. Rather than just talk about it and have it only appear in the programs, it appears in the structure itself which is as an employee, something that you get to enjoy the benefits of. The other thing that occurs to me is you’re talking about being inspired by your coworkers and your supervisors and your bosses, and they say, it’s an old saying but obviously, there’s something to it, “Birds of a feather … ”

Kat: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Anthem: They also say that you’re an average of the five people that you spend the most time with, and you’re spending time with people who are dreaming big and consequently, you’re dreaming big, you know? This network idea that you have, I love it because it’s so clear that it’s a trajectory from that work that you’re already doing.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: It’s a leap and that it’s huge.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: It’s not a leap and that you’re still on mission.

Kat: Yes.

Anthem: It’s really about serving people, being of service to the community, helping people find power in their narratives.

Kat: Yes, I’m definitely on my mission and that mission, what had happened is the vision got bigger, right?

Anthem: Yeah.

Kat: Instead of serving a city, I’m looking at the world.

Anthem: Yeah, and why not, right? If you’re going to dream big, you might as well go all out.

Kat: Yeah. The Dalai Lama said, “Why are we just thinking about millions of people, when there’s billions of people on the planet?” I was like, “Oh, Dalai Lama, you have the stuff, man.”

Anthem: Yeah, he knows.

Kat: I’m definitely still aligned with my mission, but now I’m thinking about how do I impact billions of people?

Anthem: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I love it. I love it. Where can folks find out about … Okay. You have a million things going on. I hope you’re updating your website regularly.

Kat: I am not. I need an intern real quick. Shoutout, like yo! Holler at me if you are interested in the work that I’m doing because I need you.

Anthem: People are going to want to follow this, honestly. I mean, we’re looking that the touring of Mommy Queerest under the umbrella of Guerrilla Rep Theater. We’re looking at your work with Mia Nakano and the Resiliency Project.

Kat: Resilience Archives.

Anthem: Resilience Archives, which has toured and will continue to tour nationally and will find some live happenings here in the Bay Area, and then, we got Define American which also has a national presence, but that you’re producing a play with, and original play and that’s home-brewed here in the San Francisco Bay Areas, so that’s something folks need to be paying attention to. Of course, The Future Project which again, also has a national presence of which you are a leader of its San Francisco headquarters. People need to know about this. Where can they go? I guess, you could direct them to these individual websites, but let’s go ahead and make sure that we plug all that stuff including your own personal website, so people know how to basically follow these super cool stories and projects.

Kat: Real quick. Before I go into that, just want to interject when the last time we were working on a coaching level, the goal was to go national. The goal at that time was for me to have national presence. It just hit me as you’re naming all these things how so much of that has come into fruition in the last couple of years.

Anthem: Amazing.

Kat: katevascolive.com. I’m also on Facebook, but you could also check out these amazing websites like you said, defineamerican.com, thefutureproject.org, yosimarreyes.com, mianakano.com. Check out my collaborators. They’re incredible. I’m on social media. I’m on Snapchat now, too. I’m not as exciting as other people, but I’m working on it. I’m working on it.

Anthem: Get hip with the [crosstalk 01:12:31]. This is awesome. The other thing that I really want to notice and acknowledge, too is I think when you and I first started working, correct me if I’m wrong but it might’ve been one of the first times of you actually formally hiring a coach, seeking out a mentor in that capacity.

Kat: Yes.

Anthem: Since then, you’ve accomplished so many amazing things and you’ve had many more coaches since.

Kat: Yeah.

Anthem: Which I think is so awesome because I think it speaks to the value of really finding a wing to climb under and recognizing that there are a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge and there’s so many folks that we could possibly learn from if we seek it out. You’ve totally done that in so many areas of your life, with so many different skills that you’ve been wanting to build up. I just think that’s so cool.

Kat: Yeah. I mean, that was really my first formal coaching that I’ve ever gotten. I’ve continued to go to you over the years, and every time, it’s just breakthrough after breakthrough. I decided that coaching was something that was a part of my sustainability model for myself because I cannot … I think what was exciting about having your coaches, having your thought partner, I don’t have to come up with all the solutions on my own. I have someone that’s helping me on the outside, helping me find solutions or find areas of growth or even help me just acknowledge success, right?

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: So much of us, we go through life and we don’t actually acknowledge and honor the work that we’ve been doing and having a coach has always been like that. I also have a spiritual coach. I have a finance, like I just started getting a bunch of coaching because I really believe in it. I believe in the one-on-one. I believe in someone else holding me accountable to something. I believe in someone challenging me to stretch myself. I think what’s been the most exciting, you’ve been my longest coaching relationship of all time but also, seeing how you’ve grown in your practice, I think the reason why I continue to work with you is I see you investing in yourself like you have your own coaches, right?

Anthem: That’s right.

Kat: Investing in your own growth. You are growing your resources. You are growing your knowledge base and your experience, and your growth was matching up with what I need as I was growing. I told you, this is like a lifelong thing, dude.

Anthem: Oh, yeah.

Kat: Yeah, yeah.

Anthem: Right on, Kat. You’re a rock star. I really appreciate you being here. Any final words for the crowd?

Kat: No. I mean, invest in yourself. You’re worth it. You’re worth it. So many of us put ourselves in the back burner. The folks that I know, the communities that I know, they’re working so hard towards such important things and to me, it’s like a form of compassion.

Anthem: Yes.

Kat: Get support. Do it. Invest in yourself.

Anthem: I love it. I love it. Back to the radical self-love.

Kat: Yes. Amen.

Anthem: Right on, Kat. Peace!

Kat: Thanks, Anthem.

Anthem: Well, there it is, folks. Another episode in the books. That was a nice, full one, yeah? Over an hour, but hopefully you guys have all been replenished by that and nourished by that conversation. Hopefully, you’ve taken notes and have started thinking about how you can apply some of these same sort of thoughts and actions, and processes to your own experience. Hopefully, this has been a valuable learning moment for you as it has been for me even just to conduct this talk. I really appreciate it. Guys, I love your support and I appreciate your rating. Hopefully, we’re earning five-star reviews from you guys in iTunes.

Please take a moment right now to go ahead and give us that shoutout. It would just be so valuable. It’s meaningful to me because this series really is a labor of love. You know what I mean? We do this strictly just to give, just to kind of like put the words out, and make sure people are hearing different viewpoints and appreciating that they’re not alone in their own journey. If you could give us that nod in the iTunes reviews, that would be awesome. I really appreciate it. Hope you guys are doing well and looking forward to reconnecting with you at the website or in another, yet another future episode right here at Art of Hustle. Peace.